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welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.11.25 15:00:00 - [1] You still need a mate to fly with you. Show us the close range (realistic scenario) damage graph and if it still looks overpowered I'll take note. Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.11.25 15:10:00 - [2] Originally by: Verus Potestas Originally by: welsh wizard You still need a mate to fly with you. Show us the close range (realistic scenario) damage graph and if it still looks overpowered I'll take note. Close range ones are fine. It's the Javelins that are broken to hell and back. Right, so in what scenario using Javelins at range is the target in any danger? Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.11.25 15:15:00 - [3] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: welsh wizard Right, so in what scenario using Javelins at range is the target in any danger? Then it should be no problem to reduce them to, say, 30 km range, right? But every other ship is able to defend itself at range using its chosen weapons system, why not Caldari missile ships? Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.11.25 15:17:00 - [4] Originally by: Verus Potestas Originally by: welsh wizard Right, so in what scenario using Javelins at range is the target in any danger? When the target is scrambled? The other weapons require a tackler to kill anything. Surely thats precisely the problem a missile ship has given that; it realistically has no spare mids, is too slow to tackle anything with Javelin loaded anyway and has no instant damage potential? Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.11.25 15:22:00 - [5] Edited by: welsh wizard on 25/11/2006 15:22:34 Originally by: Azerrad InExile Originally by: welsh wizard But every other ship is able to defend itself at range using its chosen weapons system, why not Caldari missile ships? No other ship is able to defend itself at range while using short range weapons. Try shooting someone at 50km using blasters loaded with null... it isn't going to work. Why should Caldari be able to hit out to 100km with their "short range" weapon? But your ships are able to manoeuver at high speeds with high agility to compensate. You want Caldari missile ships to be immobile with a short range weapons system right? You need to think a little further before you use that argument. Javelins do the moving so your ship doesn't have to. Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.11.25 15:25:00 - [6] Originally by: Verus Potestas Originally by: welsh wizard Originally by: Verus Potestas Originally by: welsh wizard Right, so in what scenario using Javelins at range is the target in any danger? When the target is scrambled? The other weapons require a tackler to kill anything. Surely thats precisely the problem a missile ship has given that; it realistically has no spare mids, is too slow to tackle anything with Javelin loaded anyway and has no instant damage potential? It has no instant damage potential, but it CAN turn a close range weapon into a 100km sniper weapon, and if you get warped on top off (normally the death of any sniper), magically, you reload t1 ammo or rage (hell, even keep Javs loaded) and kick their *** asses. I think we need to make a point here: Beams: Long range weapons. Arties: Long range weapons Rails: Long range weapons Heavies: Long range weapons. HAMs: Short range weapons. If you can hit out to 100km with your short range weapons (further than your long range weapons, FYI), it's broken. No, it isn't broken, its different. You see you're just thinking in terms of "Ship X hits harder than Ship Y so it must be overpowered." All of these Javelin nerf threads follow this same pattern and they all fail to take into account real situations in Eve. Originally by:** anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.11.25 15:40:00 - [7] Edited by: welsh wizard on 25/11/2006 15:46:37 Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 25/11/2006 15:36:09 Originally by: welsh wizard Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: welsh wizard Right, so in what scenario using Javelins at range is the target in any danger? Then it should be no problem to reduce them to, say, 30 km range, right? But every other ship is able to defend itself at range using its chosen weapons system, why not Caldari missile ships? What you seem to miss is that HAM javs are the longrange ammo of the caldari medium SHORT RANGE WEAPON SYSTEM. It's the equivalent to blasters, ACs and pulse lasers. With a 30k max range it will have WAY more effective range than med ACs and blasters with their longrange ammo and about the same range as heavy (= cruiser sized) pulse lasers. So "But every other ship is able to defend itself at range using its chosen weapons system, why not Caldari missile ships?" is in fact completely the opposite. "But every other ship is unable to defend itself at range using its chosen shortrange weapons system, unlike Caldari missile ships using shortrange missiles?" --------- Also, HAM javelins are not balanced vs the rocket and torp javelins either. Rocket jav range boost vs t1 rockets: +180% HAM jav range boost vs t1 HAMs: +560% Torp jav range boost vs t1 torps: +150% Spot the difference! But Caldari ships are too slow and have no agility to properly use a high damage close range weapons system. Besides Javelins still get outdamaged by Blasters by a considerable margin. Do you seriously think an immobile ship with no tackling ability and a 30km weapons system is a good idea? It's quite simple, if CCP want to give us a high damage close range weapons system they need to give us a fast agile ship with which to use it. They also need to cater for the extra mids we require to fit a tank, mwd, web and scram. Can you see how this is becoming a bit of a problem I suppose they could make the Rokh and armour tanking missile ship... Problem with that is its basically not a Caldari ship then is it? There'll be far more characters from other races with more skillpoints in relevant areas to use it. All they'd need to do is train Caldari cruiser to III and Heavy assauly missile to V + one spec. Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.11.25 22:01:00 - [8] Originally by: Arian Snow Edited by: Arian Snow on 25/11/2006 21:56:39 Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 25/11/2006 15:22:34 Originally by: Azerrad InExile Originally by: welsh wizard But every other ship is able to defend itself at range using its chosen weapons system, why not Caldari missile ships? No other ship is able to defend itself at range while using short range weapons. Try shooting someone at 50km using blasters loaded with null... it isn't going to work. Why should Caldari be able to hit out to 100km with their "short range" weapon? But your ships are able to manoeuver at high speeds with high agility to compensate. You want Caldari missile ships to be immobile with a short range weapons system right? You need to think a little further before you use that argument. Javelins do the moving so your ship doesn't have to. Ce'? Tell that to the Maelstrom ... its sooo fast and speedy ... O' yeah great argument... And the Maelstrom shares what similarities to shield tanking Caldari missile ships? Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.11.25 22:11:00 - [9] Edited by: welsh wizard on 25/11/2006 22:11:50 I give up, people won't see reason. It's quite bloody simple right? If you want to deny the ship firing range then it has to be able to move and it has to be able to hold its target in place, ESPECIALLY if its payload takes time to hit the target. This is an unbelievably simple concept to grasp. You can't just remove Javelin missile range, speed and damage and be done with it. You either leave it as it is or scrap Javelin altogether and release 2 different tech II missile types with different bonuses and disadvantages. Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.11.25 23:24:00 - [10] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: welsh wizard It's quite bloody simple right? If you want to deny the ship firing range then it has to be able to move and it has to be able to hold its target in place, ESPECIALLY if its payload takes time to hit the target. This is an unbelievably simple concept to grasp. Try to grasp this: Why do you need to counter a (at worst) 20% slower speed a 200%+ longer range? Jesus, if that isn't obvious forget it. Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.11.26 14:10:00 - [11] Edited by: welsh wizard on 26/11/2006 14:15:57 Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: welsh wizard Jesus, if that isn't obvious forget it. The only "obvious" thing here is that you have no clue about any turret ship mechanics... Are we discussing turret ships? Can one of you lot please confirm my suspicions. Do you think that a missile ship that moves at approximately 50m/s, has no capacity to fit an mwd/web and has a maximum weapon range of 30km with an average - high damage payload balanced? I'd appreciate it if someone could answer that. Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2006.11.26 19:07:00 - [12] Edited by: welsh wizard on 26/11/2006 19:08:01 You know what? Nerf it, I'm patient enough to wait for the inevitable buff in a few months time. Only actual game time will show whats what. Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.

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